FOSROC Under-18 Inter-Districts: Edinburgh claim Grand Slam with win over Caledonia

30 Comments

1. Quite the opposite in fact. The donkeys got more individual coaching than the more gifted players and I found that slow starters who might otherwise have been lost to the game often became the backbone of the team as they matured. I remember one gangly lad who had been tried at centre by the other coaches becoming a very good 2nd row when he was pointed in the right direction

2. Bursaries offered by Fee Paying schools undermine the quality of rugby in State Schools by cherry-picking their best players. This serves to both preserve the status of the Fee-Paying schools whilst ensuring that they are unlikely ever to have “their” sweeties pinched by a State School like the triple-winning Bell Baxter/Howe side. In addition, this cherry-picking demotivates the teammates of the individuals involved. How must it feel to have one or more of your top players who you have built a team around for four years whisked away and your team hollowed out?
   Having said all that the real problem is retention. If 25% of the players who started mini rugby went on to play in adulthood we would not have a numbers problem. I helped coach my son’s age group from mini to age 16. They were a talented group with a few real stars. I was often left to coach the “donkeys”, but I found time spent with slow starters paid more dividends than the time lavished on the natural players. One player who shall remain nameless was a wee fat toerag, and when one of the fee-paying schools turned up a man short, he offered to play for them. They rejected him, saying “We know what you are trying to do to us”. That same player went on to play something like 5 seasons for the adult first xv in National 1 and 2 before having to retire early due to a concussion. His age group won the Caledonia Cup at age 16, but very few of them went on to play adult rugby. When I spoke to them about it in later years, many of them felt that they had enjoyed the best of rugby in their early years and wanted a change.

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   • ” I was often left to coach the “donkeys””

     Hmm that says a lot.

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     • What exactly do you think it says?

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     • It says you have no respect for your players so how can you expect them to have any respect for you?

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     • Quite the opposite in fact. The donkeys got more individual coaching than the more gifted players and I found that slow starters who might otherwise have been lost to the game often became the backbone of the team as they matured. I remember one gangly lad who had been tried at centre by the other coaches becoming a very good 2nd row when he was pointed in the right direction

3. Kenny, in my view a possible solution would be be :
   1- let private schools mind their business and take profit of that
   2- to be a S6/Permiership/Nat1 club, to have 2 senior teams at least , U18/u16/u15 competing in SRU leagues regularly, and a mini section. 4 S6 clubs have that structure in place , well done ! . It should be a duty for them to have that pathway. This should encourage for Nat2 clubs and below to develop young players if they have ambitions. But if they only want to be a social club, then let them be.
   3- have a fee system when players move from club to club, specially when big club poach them from small ones .

   Just a few ideas, but that would/should promote development, which in my view should be the main mindset for everybody and of course each club have their own targets/objectives etc etc

   Don’t think S6 is the issue, I think the foundations of the whole structure is the issue.

   Thoughts ?
   Challenge: provide solution not complains ? 😁

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4. Alan, does anyone ever do a longitudinal study of how many of these lads are retained in rugby over a period of time? I was looking at your preview of the schools cup finals day in 2016
   https://www.theoffsideline.com/preview-scottish-schools-cup-finals-day-with-team-lists-for-all-eight-matches/
   There are about 300 young men listed there, aged under 16 to under 18, at that point.
   So they are all now in adult rugby. In one sense it is a random selection of guys who played for successful school teams. On the other hand they are all lads who experienced ‘a high’ of playing rugby at Murrayfield in a cup final while still at school, so you would have thought they would be fairly motivated to keep in the game.

   You can choose a fairly decent ‘PRO/SEMI PRO XV’ out of the lads selected that day
   K Clarke; J Blain, O Smith, G Hughes, A Scott; R Thompson, K Barreto;
   M Walker, A N Other, E McLaren, C Henderson, A N Other, C Boyle, T Andrews, H Morris
   That makes me think we are doing not bad at keeping motivated talented lads involved in the game.

   I can then count about another 25 guys who played Premier 1 or 2 last season. Again not bad. And then perhaps another 25 who play regularly at University level.

   But that leaves more than 200 I don’t know about. Does anyone ever go and ask them if they are still playing and if not, why not? Did work get in the way? Studies? Did other interests take over? Was there nowhere to go? Did injury stop them? Did they enjoy playing with their mates at school, but not without their mates at a club?
   I think such research might highlight why guys leave the game and what would help to retain them.

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5. JW – you read me completely wrong. I am not for one moment saying it is the private schools fault.

   I am simply saying that the selectors are missing out on loads of talented players from all areas of society. That is not the private schools fault.

   I never for a moment suggested anything negative about private schools and their system. Without them we would be in an even worse position.

   You will see that the main point i made was that we need more game time after school years. I even said that private school boys were being overlooked who have loads of talent.

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   • That’s fine but in my defence your post was in answer to the question why people are beating up private schools and your answer started because ….!

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6. Yes Lewis get the boy back in the Game get him a long to a club that will put him in the window.

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7. why are some people constantly beating up private schools I understand that the age grade system works on nominations from schools / coaches & teachers. Fact is the private schools are usually better prepared and are usually at a higher standard because they have been playing longer have access to better facility’s. its not because they are POSH enough is enough the private schools are not the problem. Investment by local councils in extra curriculum activities (rugby) is the issue

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   • Because of the vast number of talented players who are totally ignored. We have never replied more on the fee paying school system and we are falling further and further behind at age grade and pro rugby. Results and performances aren’t lying.

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     • Relied not replied!!

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     • Understand that frustration, but what is the solution? How do these talented players get picked up? This is a selection issue surely, rather than anything else.

       At the same time, we also have to be realistic and say that there are also many very talented private school players who are not getting opportunities at a higher level, so I genuinely don’t believe that it is only one way.

       I think we also can agree that the U18 Scotland team did well in the 6 Nations this year (around 50:50 split private and state), and that the problem lies 100% in getting players playing after school so that they are prepared for U20’s. This is our biggest issue as a nation at the moment, and the reason we are falling behind. It is not to do where someone goes to school. It is to do with game time and the route when they leave school.

       Which starts the Super 6 / club debate again…

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     • But it’s not the private schools fault that other talented players are ignored is it?

       Criticise the selectors who ignore non-private school players all you like but don’t beat up those are only doing their jobs and producing the players for the selectors to consider.

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   • A lot of comments recently comparing us negatively to Ireland, who are obviously notably more successful. However, they still rely heavily on the private schools to make up their age grade squads. Their U18 Six Nations squad was 2/3rd from private schools and 1/3rd from state schools.

   • Chas, I don’t understand the aggression to private schools either, just because they have resources and want to improve the lads in rugby? … State schools shouldn’t be blamed either if rugby is not a main sport for them, why force people to do a sport they don’t have any interest?? Or put PE teachers or volunteers to run the rugby program with little knowledge? … the clubs should pick that up , which I know some of them are doing it and very well.
     Re states schools lack of interest, my son was in a state school with a “strong” rugby program ( 2 sessions a week after school) cos PE couldn’t fit it in?!.. he was overlooked by the coaches because he was tall and slow, his game time was very little, I was coaching him as keen rugby dad, I had a few chats with their coaches but nothing changed, aka he stopped playing rugby. Today the lad is 16 yo, 6.6” tall and 110kgs fit boy !! I bet any private school would’ve seen that and help him to develop !

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     • @lewis Get him back in the game pronto…

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   • I brought up private school first in this thread. Tl be clear I agree with what you have said – I would repeat that they do “head hunt” great players form state school by offering bursaries, which also make them better and a recommendation from say and ex pro player will carry more weight than a state PE teacher.
     I’m not attacking private schools, but I am very concerned at how reliant we are on them – always have been, now more than ever I think. Plus it also can act as a deterrent for some state pupils.
     I have no easy solution. But that does not mean we should ignore the issue

8. 18 of the Edinburgh squad are from Private schools? How many boys from state schools with talent have been missed.

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9. The selection process at U16 & U18 is garbage – so much talent is missed and/or wrongly backed (when they will not pursue Rugby post school when option of Law, Medicine, Maths/Economics) The evidence is there in the U20s road crash. I could name three players from Glasgow & West not in U16 squads – who are better than almost every single player in the named sides. (None of them are relatives have just observed them play and have seen every side at that age up close for several seasons). System is flawed. Needs to be season long representative competition and more regional cup contests.

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10. and many thanks for the write up Alan.

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11. anyone know why Glasgow and Edinburgh were missing so many players?

    Also good to see how (outside Edinburgh!) how many did not come from fee paying schools – and again wonder how many of the Edinburgh guys have been brought in from elsewhere on scholarships

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    • Scotland u18s had a training week and a number of players from the district sides were called up to enlarge the squads.

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      • ah!

        Thanks

      • How was the Scotland training squad selected then if not from the districts?

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    • Regarding the comment about boys on scholarships in Edinburgh, I know that almost all, if not all, of the boys have been at their schools for a long time. So I don’t think there are many brought in. Same with last weeks Edinburgh team

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      • don’t doubt that at all. But most isn’t all, and most season’s there seems to be a top talent from elsewhere turns upon a bursary late school. Quite remarkable how they are only offered to top sports guys in s4/5/6. Only takes one or two to lift the overall level if you recruit, eg Bradbury types

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    • Scotland u18s training camp is on with 30 players training against Italy and wales

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